Bryan ([info]boyan_fraser) wrote,
@ 2008-01-03 04:41:00
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Current mood: contemplative
Current music:Secret Garden - Adagio

Solving the Mysteries of Feedback
Incredibly, this is a pretty snark-free entry. You've been warned.

I like to master things. Part of this means knowing how they work, slicing them down the middle and sticking my hand inside, pulling bits and pieces out, weighing them, studying them. I'm happiest wallowing in minutiae, analyzing until there's no flesh left on the bones. It's really an annoying and gruesome habit, but it explains why I keep autopsying the same topics.

I want to understand how to write good feedback. I can't do it. I've actually been experimenting with it lately, switching from long, analytical public LoCs to shorter, drooly private ones, and even combinations of the two. I'm still not doing it right.

I can't use my own reaction to feedback as a yardstick, because I have, and it doesn't work. I'm doubtless missing something, as I frequently do, some little twist or curve. I've written feedback that I would've blown the devil for, long, ecstatic stuff where I'm trying to tell the author how much the story mattered to me, and been grunted at or ignored.

Maybe I'm not sounding enthusiastic enough. Maybe some part of me goes too editorial, which happens when I don't realize it, and I sound too cold. Or maybe I sound too enthusiastic, and that makes the feedback suspect. Maybe my LoCs are too much about my reaction, my thoughts--maybe the comments should be less reader-response and more general enthusiasm, less, "I loved how you..." and more, "It was so great when..."

Or maybe it's simply who I am, or rather, who I'm not. I think this is probably the closest to the truth, that feedback matters more when it comes from the right people, whoever they may be, and no matter how good, excited, smart or insightful my feedback might possibly be, it matters more whose name comes at the end of the message than the message itself.
___

On an entirely different note:

A couple of days ago I revamped my LJ to something simpler. I've even exercized my mad photoshoping skillz and made myself this gorgeous header at the top. I still need to figure out how to customize a few things, though, 'cos I know nothing about CSS, but nevertheless, I'm quite satisfied with what I've done so far. I wanted something elegant, clean and simple, 'less is more' kind of stuff, and the layout is sort of meant to put focus on the content. What do you think?

Also, my God/Lucifer fic is now finished. It's a bit lengthy, so I'll probably break it into two parts when I post it. If you're interested and won't faint at an NC-17 piece featuring a hot young God and a rainbow-winged Lucifer in a story that revisions Creation, then keep an eye on the next entries.



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[info]centim
2008-01-03 09:48 am UTC (link) Track This
ooh, I like your new layout! I noticed it yesterday and thought "hmm, cool!"
I got myself a paid account a few weeks ago and never got around to customizing anything. But then again, I only got the account for the 100 userpics :-/

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-03 06:14 pm UTC (link) Track This
Yeah, I'm pretty self-satisfied with the new layout, especially with the header. I like minimal design, black text on white background and such things, because it emphasizes the content, and that's what really matters. Some extra userpics wouldn't hurt either, but still, I'm very happy with my LJ right now.

Btw, your lovely quill has really worked its magic on me--it seems I can't stop writing. So, thank you again, it was such a fantastic gift. I'll have to write you something, you know. ;)

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[info]centim
2008-01-03 08:07 pm UTC (link) Track This
*gasp* No-one's ever written anything for me! *beams* I'm so happy to have inspired you! *smiles brightly*
Is there any particular PB pairing you enjoy writing (apart from Kellerman/Michael)? If I remember correctly you mentioned that you would even consider writing Michael/Sara... They would be a treat, though I DO enjoy every word you write, one way or the other =)

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-03 08:25 pm UTC (link) Track This
I did say I could write some Michael/Sara, although that would go against my slasher-principles--but if you want MiSa, then dammit, you'll get MiSa!

I had an idea for another Michael/Sucre fic, or perhaps Michael/Lincoln, so if you want one of those instead, now's your chance to choose. ;)

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[info]centim
2008-01-03 08:31 pm UTC (link) Track This
Yes yes yes yes! *hops around like a dork* =D
Michael/Lincoln will do just fine :) < /understatement>
gosh, now I'm all excited ;)

I just realized that I've never read any PB fic other than yours. Hmmm... will have to check out the other authors soon. I have a feeling that's gonna make me appreciate you more, not less, though. Grammatical coherence and all ;P

PS: could you make it spoilerfree for me? I'm done with "2x10 Unearthed" :) Otherwise, don't worry, I'm catching up as we talk (progress limited by my download speed of 10kB/s *snarks*)

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[info]thelana
2008-01-03 08:37 pm UTC (link) Track This
*puts head in*

If you are looking for fic, the slash award nomminations might be a good place to start though I can't guarantee that all of them will be spoilerfree.

Back in season one I collected 50 of my favorite Michael and Lincoln stories for a comm called rec50 though it has both slash and gen and not everything is very graphic. However, they all should be spoilerfree for season 2.

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[info]centim
2008-01-03 08:42 pm UTC (link) Track This
Thank you! :)
In regard to Michael/Sara fic I've already been spoiled by a youtube-video *growls* ...why can't anybody stay alive, damnit!
Thanks again! *g*

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[info]thelana
2008-01-03 08:45 pm UTC (link) Track This
Well, there might still be some twists and turns (like who catches who and who confronts who and stuff like that) that you might prefer not knowing :) Though that could be more of an issue when it comes to Mahonefic or Kellermanfic since those were the ones pursuing our guys.

Michael and Lincoln are easy. Grab anything that is set pre-series and you are pretty much safe anyway :D

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[info]boniblithe
2008-01-04 05:35 pm UTC (link) Track This
"grab anything" - that's exactly what this person will do, since they're a dirty, scumbag, disgusting THIEF.

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[info]thelana
2008-01-04 05:44 pm UTC (link) Track This
I appreciate your concern but:

1.) By now both me and centim are already informed of the situation. We weren't when we were having this conversation.

2.) To my knownledge centim is not connected to b_f beyond friending him/her in good faith. There is no reason to go after the people who were duped by b_f and who feel crabby all by themselves already.

3.) b_f has written (or potentially "written") exactly ONE story in the fandom and that quite recently. None of b_f's stories was featured in the links I suggested to centim.

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-03 09:01 pm UTC (link) Track This
Don't worry, you'll probably finish with S2 before I finish with the fic (did I mention that I'm the world's slowest writer?). Sorry to spoil your excitement, but at least I can promise that it'll be something worth waiting for (er... I hope, anyway). ;)

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[info]boniblithe
2008-01-04 05:34 pm UTC (link) Track This
Slowest writer ... you mean, you haven't found a fic with that pairing that you can steal yet? What's taking you so long!

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[info]thelana
2008-01-03 10:45 am UTC (link) Track This
Maybe some part of me goes too editorial, which happens when I don't realize it, and I sound too cold.

Sometimes I get the impression that boys seem to have that habit :P

I tend to think that for most authors any feedback is preferable to no feedback. If you feel like you are getting too editorial or critical maybe you could ask first? Like "I have some thoughts on this, but I'm not sure whether to post them/would it be okay?". Or offer to send them per email instead so it isn't as public.

Though if you are very editorial maybe you should offer to be a beta :)

Or maybe it's simply who I am, or rather, who I'm not. I think this is probably the closest to the truth, that feedback matters more when it comes from the right people, whoever they may be, and no matter how good, excited, smart or insightful my feedback might possibly be, it matters more whose name comes at the end of the message than the message itself.

It does? Because I always got the impression that authors are starving for every new reader. So you have the old friends who always comment and who you are glad for because of that. And you have the new people who make you dizzily excited because it shows that you got somebody new to care and you know they aren't just commenting because they are your friends.

Not to mention, every new person means a new point of view, so I'm guessing they would always be welcome.

Not to mention that if you give insightful feedback you can easily become a friend. There are some people in fandom who don't write or who don't write a lot but who are still extremely beloved, wanted or missed just because they gave such good or insightful feedback.

Thought. Would you mind if they submitted this link to [info]metafandom? I thought maybe your thoughts would be interesting to the people over there/you maybe would be interested to get a potentially wider selection of opinions on the topic.

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-03 07:55 pm UTC (link) Track This
I work as an editor in RL, so I guess it could be a 'professional deformation'? Only a very confident writer can stand having me as a beta, because I'm way too critical and picky. I should know, because I push myself even harder than others.

As for the name attached, I love all feedback, and I'm extremely happy when it shows up, regardless of the source. Sure, some LoCs are better than others, and I'm certainly not bouncing with joy for all of them, but they're still all worthy of at least a short note of thanks.

I must admit I am pleased when I get feedback from someone whose writing I admire, because it means, at least to me, I achieved something I was going for. I think one of my greatest joys was receiving praise for a story I wrote from an award winning author, not because he was more important than anyone else, but because he sort of symbolised what I hoped for. But all feedback, well constructed and specific, helps me think, reflect, and grow, and ye gods know I need that. So I'm happy for whatever I get, so long as it doesn't, you know, have a virus attached or a death threat.

Unfortunately, the reality is that not everyone appreciates feedback. Some people receive enough that they don't really care about one more letter; others prefer one type to the next. Still others like it from certain people and care much less, if at all, when it comes from others.

I try to send the sort of feedback I'd like to receive, and for the most part I am graced with lovely notes of thanks in response. Some are very chatty and effusive (which I adore), others more cool, but whatever the tone, it's still really nice to know that my time and effort was appreciated.

My problem comes with people who don't acknowledge feedback at all. (Though it's actually kind of funny when I'm ignored by someone who posts a story with a 'please send feedback' note in the header!) I'm neurotic enough to wonder if I've offended them somehow, which is quite possible in my case, but my common sense eventually gets the last word, which for me is: If a writer doesn't let me know that my feedback was welcome, I won't bother them with it in future.

Would you mind if they submitted this link to metafandom?

While I think it might be interesting to hear many different opinions on this subject, I feel a little--okay, a lot--uncomfortable with this idea. I guess that in spite of my confident facade, I can't really escape from my shy and introverted nature. I've always preferred to stay at the wayside of fandom and observe it from a safe distance, and I'd like to keep it that way. ;)

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[info]thelana
2008-01-03 08:24 pm UTC (link) Track This
I try to send the sort of feedback I'd like to receive,

*nods*

That seems like the best option to me. For one I'm a big believer in feedback karma. If you comment on other people's fic then hopefully your own feedback pile will grow. And in the reverse, if you can't be arsed to give feedback yourself then you can't really expect others to give you any. Don't get me wrong, if you are a good author you will still get feedback. My issue is just that you ain't got the right to complain about people not leaving you feedback if you don't even do it yourself. You know, karma.

Plus, if you leave the kind of feedback you like, I like to think that chances are higher that you will eventually pick up people with similar styles and interests. Like they will notice your feedback, respond in kind and you might end up as pals from the conversations you have in there.

I've always preferred to stay at the wayside of fandom and observe it from a safe distance, and I'd like to keep it that way. ;)

Grin. Yessir :) No prob. Not to mention that metafandom can be a bit hefty sometimes. It's definitely not everybody's kind of thing. (I have two close friends on my flist who both got linked at various times without being asked and who LOATHE it subsequently)

Unfortunately, the reality is that not everyone appreciates feedback. Some people receive enough that they don't really care about one more letter; others prefer one type to the next.

Yeah it can happen. Especially with authors who get truckloads of it (like 60plus) they will probably care about the first 10 or 15 and then not so much anymore. Thankfully, those kind of people will probably be quite rare in the Prison Break fandom since it's quite a small fandom :D

I do dislike that it seems that a lot of people seem to be either slow to reply to old comments (on stories they posted a long time ago) or don't do so at all. It's possible that not all of them get email updates or check their old stories regularly, but it still strikes me as quite sad.

My problem comes with people who don't acknowledge feedback at all. (Though it's actually kind of funny when I'm ignored by someone who posts a story with a 'please send feedback' note in the header!)

LOL.

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-03 08:48 pm UTC (link) Track This
I have two close friends on my flist who both got linked at various times without being asked and who LOATHE it subsequently

That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to avoid. :) And that's why I'm quite happy that PB fandom is not a very large one.

I like your feedback-karma philosophy. And don't even get me started on the subject of bored feedback writers (he said, getting started on the subject of bored feedback writers)! I'm not talking about nice LoCs, but juicy gorgeous ones, the ones that make sane people hump their chairs with glee, because they're from a stranger who just took the time to say your story was beautiful and I liked it (we're talking paragraphs of enthusiastic, smart commentary here)--and they don't even bother to respond with a simple "thanks."

Oh my. There I go. It's one of my hot spots. But we're writers, dammit! How hard is it to fake pleasure for something like a great LoC? And would you have to fake it? Can you imagine what these people are like in bed???

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[info]thelana
2008-01-03 09:11 pm UTC (link) Track This
I can get distancing yourself from feedback, especially when you write smaller fandoms or maybe more unpopular material. So you figure, I only write for myself/I don't care for feedback/I don't care if my stuff is unpopular. Plus, I think some people just like being cranky on the internet. It's a thing.

But yeah, in general I agree. It's odd.

I think, rule of thumb, the VAST majority of writer is hungry for feedback, just love the hell out of it and are grateful for every encouragement :)

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[info]boniblithe
2008-01-04 05:36 pm UTC (link) Track This
I have two close friends on my flist who both got linked at various times without being asked and who LOATHE it subsequently

That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to avoid. :) And that's why I'm quite happy that PB fandom is not a very large one.


Did you hold a seance and ask Thamiris if she'd mind if you stole her work?

Aren't you REALLY just glad that PB fandom is small because it means people are less likely to notice your thievery?

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[info]viva_gloria
2008-01-04 03:15 pm UTC (link) Track This
I'd strongly suggest you don't submit this link to [info]metafandom: it is copied, without attribution, from http://thamiris.livejournal.com/45733.html, as are some of the comments.

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[info]happywriter06
2008-01-03 05:29 pm UTC (link) Track This
I've found that once I starting reading fan fic everything I'd ever learned in a high school or college about discussing a piece of work was forgotten. Nine times out of ten I hate the feedback I leave. I walk away feeling as though it was utterly lame and didn't convey how felt. I feel like, "How in the hell did get I A's in those classes?"

Or maybe it's simply who I am, or rather, who I'm not. I think this is probably the closest to the truth, that feedback matters more when it comes from the right people, whoever they may be, and no matter how good, excited, smart or insightful my feedback might possibly be, it matters more whose name comes at the end of the message than the message itself.
I think that's true on some level for certain LJers. I remember a while back someone on my f-list mentioning cliques. I think what you said happens when you get into those cliques. At least that's been my experience. The thing is though I don't think those people mean to be cliquish.

I like your new layout.

If you're interested and won't faint at an NC-17 piece featuring a hot young God and a rainbow-winged Lucifer in a story that revisions Creation, then keep an eye on the next entries.
I shouldn't be excited about this, right? lol

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-03 08:16 pm UTC (link) Track This
Sometimes I feel that way too. But I try my best to be sincere and point out the strongest aspects of the story (I save my editorial sting for pro writers; they're getting paid for it, so I can afford to be brutally honest).

I'm sure you know that sometimes people don't appreciate feedback, that they complain about it publicly, saying that the writer of said feedback completely misinterpreted their work. That has happened to me a time or two, and of course people like that were in my mind when I posted my comments, as well as those who ignored the LoC, or who grunted at it.

I don't think that I'll personally ever be convinced that LoCs shouldn't be answered. I understand the intimidation factor; some LoCs require more than a quickie response, and that can be overwhelming. And of course when you first post a story, and LoCs pour in, it can be crazy--which is why I try not to put it off, or I'll never get it done. If I'm too overwhelmed by the length or maybe RL life is too crazy, I do a more general response, talking about the points on which I have the most to say.

But if I send feedback to someone and I don't hear back from an author once or maybe twice, I won't send anymore. I'll also not bother reading their fic, since there's so much out there that I can afford to be selective. But I'm somewhat of a rabid bitch on the subject--I admit that freely. ;)

I shouldn't be excited about this, right? lol

Well, the only thing I can say is, I'm glad you are. *g*

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[info]randomsome1
2008-01-04 05:26 pm UTC (link) Track This
Here's this original post. Here's a post about the (deceased) author he's stealing things from--posts, comments, et cetera--left and right. You're discussing a dead author's post with the person who's pretending to be them, and this disturbs me.

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[info]nightshade_7976
2008-01-03 06:00 pm UTC (link) Track This
Hell, I just wish I could write again, period...:)

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-03 08:21 pm UTC (link) Track This
I wish I wasn't so lazy when it comes to writing. I have ideas and inspiration for stories constantly, but most of the time I just let them pass me by and sink into oblivion. I use only 10% (or even less) of the ideas I get, and actually write something.

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[info]thelana
2008-01-03 08:33 pm UTC (link) Track This
They are called plot bunnies or story bunnies :)

I firmly believe in writing them up and setting them free even if you don't end up writing them themselves. On places like [info]foxriver_fic or [info]pb_bunnies (which doesn't really exist yet, I just created it just in case; I haven't really mentioned or promoted it anywhere) or even your own journal of the slash or pairing communities.

After all, you never know maybe somebody might see the idea, get inspired by it and write it. And even if not, at least you set it free :) And gave somebody else the chance to dream about it. Or you know, nag you about it.

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-03 08:57 pm UTC (link) Track This
So, I presume you didn't see my poem about bunnies? *g* If I catch those pesky little things, I got a big pot of boiling water ready on the stove. ;)

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[info]thelana
2008-01-03 09:05 pm UTC (link) Track This
But you see, that's the point. They are supposed to represent evil and annoying, hopping around you, making you want to shoot them.

I kinda picture them more like the nightmarish gremlins kind.

They are meant to be tortured.

Though I have also heard the term plot frog too :D

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-03 09:28 pm UTC (link) Track This
Oh gods, they're going to ruin my love for amphibians now, aren't they?

I guess I better prepare for some killing. ::EG::

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-04 02:59 am UTC (link) Track This
Thank you! I'm very proud of myself for making it. :)

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[info]gretazreta
2008-01-04 04:29 am UTC (link) Track This
Hi.
I actually came to see what you had to say about commenting, stopped to look at your layout (very nice, I like your choice of fonts for the content, elegant and crisp) and stayed to read your bunny poem. Because I loathe and despise that term. Probably because my "bunnies" aren't nimble little skippers. They're the General Woundworts of the rabbit world. Fat, toothy, inclined to be vicious, and finding movement onerous.

If it's okay I'd like to friend you because (and isn't that the most frightening first half of a sentence in THE WORLD) I liked reading what you had to say about writing and I'm also hanging out to read your God/Lucifer story.

With regards commenting, I always try to unless I don't have anything of value to say. I think what I try to do is comment on what I think the writer is trying to do, and how well they appear to succeed in it. I think that's always very subjective, but the best responses I've had are when the person goes "yes, that's what I was trying to do and I was afraid it didn't come across. When I write stuff, I like comments that are specific - the whole "this is the best thing ever" are gratifying (and admittedly rare) but I don't believe them, so I end up replying... "THank you so much" and struggling against the urge to rec other stories that I know are better. It's weird, but I think commenting is the essence of fandom, much more so than the writing. Or they're mutually entwined, anyhow. That's where the community part of it seems to work best, for me.

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[info]boyan_fraser
2008-01-04 05:15 am UTC (link) Track This
Hi Greta. I love meeting new people and dialoguing with them, so it's more than okay to friend me. Welcome. I see you'll be a great company for my Great Bunny Kill. ;)

As for feedback, I love to write it to show my support for the good writers, but I hate it when the writer ignores it. A simple "thanks" would suffice, even though I usually leave long, analytical feedback that I would reply with equally long comment. Or at least I did: I'm entering the short but sweet phase of my LoC-writing career, I think. It's just way easier, and I care less when people don't answer.

I don't want to sound like people aren't nice--often, they are. And I totally agree that writing and commenting are entwined, which is what creates the sense of true community in fandom.

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[info]gretazreta
2008-01-04 05:30 am UTC (link) Track This
Yeah I think that's the thing, because I think quite hard about what to comment (when I comment) I feel kind of snubbed if people don't reply. I'm even peevish if I think quite hard about it and write a lot and get "Thanks, glad you enjoyed!" but that's because I'm SPOILED (and I love getting into deeper conversations about the writing process) Also, I never wrote anything that got more than say... fifteen comments, so I can't imagine getting pages and pages and having to find something to say to everybody. But that's the price of stardom I guess.

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[info]tx_cronopio
2008-01-04 03:25 pm UTC (link) Track This
Greta, you might want to rethink this. This entire post, and many others, was stolen verbatim from here: http://thamiris.livejournal.com/45733.html
The original writer died recently of breast cancer, which makes the whole thing more odious.

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The Mystery of Feedback is solved!
[info]tazlet
2008-01-04 02:38 pm UTC (link) Track This
You plagiarized [info]thamiris's work -- do not pass go, do not collect any feedback

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[info]fountaingirl
2008-01-04 04:00 pm UTC (link) Track This
Oh my god. OH MY GOD. Who in the seven rings of hell plaigiarizes from the DEAD??

BOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HISSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Try something yet simpler, like BEING A DECENT HUMAN BEING!

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[info]toliver
2008-01-04 04:13 pm UTC (link) Track This
This is the action of someone who is seriously mentally ill. Please get help for yourself.

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[info]onelittlesleep
2008-01-04 04:37 pm UTC (link) Track This
Fuck you, dude.

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[info]kerri_is_dead
2008-01-04 05:24 pm UTC (link) Track This
*LOL* Why would you plaigiarize an entry? I get why someone might do it with a story - but an LJ entry? WTF?

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[info]bramble_rose
2008-01-04 05:41 pm UTC (link) Track This
...because he/she/it is morally and ethically challenged? Or, more likely, just really really incapable of original thought.

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